Following the release of Shadow Labyrinth this past July, Japanese gaming website Denfaminicogamer assembled a roundtable of notable Japanese game creators who have an affinity for the Metroidvania genre.

The conversation included Koji Igarashi, Seigo Aizawa, Toru Takahashi, Katsuhiro Harada, Tomoaki Fukui, and Daichi Saito, where they discussed the genre’s appeal and what makes exploration fun!

This article appears in English exclusively on the Bandai Namco Entertainment America website with permission from Denfaminicogamer.

Shadow Labyrinth is Available Now!

What is it about the Metroidvania genre that attracts gamers?

For those who might need a refresher, the Metroidvania genre is generally meant to refer to a side-scrolling 2D action game, in which the player explores a map, acquires abilities, and expands their skills. Gated-progression, back-tracking, environmental storytelling are hallmarks of the experience where players discover secrets, solve a mystery, and try to survive to talk about it.

The term "Metroidvania" was coined in reference to two games, "Metroid" released by Nintendo in 1986 and “Castlevania” (more specifically, "Castlevania X: Symphony of the Night") released by Konami in 1997.

In the early 2000s, as the mainstream gaming world shifted from 2D to 3D, it seems as if the genre may have been momentarily forgotten. The genre has a multitude of titles across many platforms and recently has experienced something of a renaissance.

From games like "Cave Story," which started out as a free game, to "Hollow Knight," which became hugely popular on Steam. The history of Metroidvania's development has been accompanied by the growth of indie development by individuals and small teams. The Metroidvania genre continues to grow as developers of all sizes continue to refine and reinvent the formula.

Denfaminicogamer invited Koji Igarashi from ArtPlay, creator of the "Bloodstained" series, who has just announced his new title "Bloodstained: The Scarlet Engagement.” Katsuhiro Harada and Toru Takahashi from Namco Bandai Studios, Seigo Aizawa from Bandai Namco Entertainment, Tomoaki Fukui from Engines, who are the development team on "Shadow Labyrinth," which released on July 18th, 2025, and shocked gamers for its inventive use of PAC-MAN. Finally, the discussion also included Mr. Daichi Saito from Why So Serious, Inc. who has produced several Metroidvania titles as part of TEAM LADYBUG. The group discussed the history and characteristics of Metroidvania from a variety of perspectives.

From left to right: Mr. Aizawa, Mr. Fukui, Mr. Igarashi, Mr. Saito, Mr. Harada, and Mr. Takahashi, at the PAC-MAN 45th Anniversary display in the lobby of Bandai Namco Entertainment’s Tokyo headquarters.

“I wanted to create an action game that I could complete myself.”

— Thank you for joining us today. There are many people on the "Shadow Labyrinth" development team, so please let the "Shadow Labyrinth" staff introduce themselves first.

Mr. Seigo Aizawa (Mr. Aizawa): 
My name is Seigo Aizawa, and I am the producer. It is a pleasure to meet you.

Mr. Toru Takahashi (Mr. Takahashi): 
My name is Takahashi, and I am the producer of "Shadow Labyrinth. I am in charge of "Shadow Labyrinth," or rather, I am the planner who says, "I really wanted to make this.” I look forward to working with you.

Katsuhiro Harada (Mr. Harada): 
My name is Harada, and I am in a somewhat unique position as the coordinator of the whole project. My job is to interface with the global marketing development of the production side, and also to interface with the content of the game itself to make sure it is consistent.

— Are you in a position similar to that of an executive producer?

Mr. Harada: 
No, but Takahashi-san is in charge. I am more on the development side, but I am like a mentor for him. His personal mentor.

Mr. Takahashi: 
(laughs).

Mr. Tomoaki Fukui (Mr. Fukui): 
I am the director of "Shadow Labyrinth" at ENGINES, a developer in Osaka. I originally worked for SNK and then CAPCOM.

─ I would like to add an explanation for the readers; Mr. Fukui's career is really amazing. After graduating from Osaka University of Arts, you joined SNK as a designer, worked on the "Samurai Spirits" series, and later became the director of "Kirby & The Amazing Mirror".

Mr. Takahashi: 
I loved "The King of Fighters" and "Samurai Spirits" as a child, so I thought that if I wanted to make a 2D action game, it should be done by a professional, so I asked Mr. Fukui for help. I thought, "If I'm going to make a 2D action game, I want to work with someone who has worked on "Samurai Spirits."

Mr. Daichi Saito (Mr. Saito): 
I love "Kirby & The Amazing Mirror" .......

Mr. Takashi Igarashi (Mr. Igarashi): 
I think "The Amazing Mirror" is very well known overseas.

Mr. Takahashi: 
In this round-table discussion, I would like to convey the fact that "Shadow Labyrinth" was created by such an amazing person as well! (laughs)

Mr. Harada: 
Well, first of all, I should tell you how much "Shadow Labyrinth" has taken from "Castlevania" and "Bloodstained" [*] (laughs).

Mr. Takahashi: 
I learned a lot (laughs).

Mr. Fukui:
About 90% of the game is based on everything except the setting (laughs).

─ (laughs) - First of all, I would like to start by verbalizing the appeal of Metroidvania as much as possible, and I would like to begin by asking, why do you make Metroidvania? Please tell us how you came to be aware of Metroidvania and what you find attractive about it.

Mr. Igarashi:
The first time I heard the word "Metroidvania" was when we were running the Kickstarter campaign for "Bloodstained”. At first, my impression was, “It's become a genre called ‘Metroidvania’?” I thought, “Metroid is a Nintendo trademark, so isn't it wrong to use it as is?” (laughs).

Mr. Harada: 
(laughs) The "Vania" in the back seems to be just barely OK, though.

Mr. Igarashi: 
As for "Vania," ...... well, there is a place named "Transylvania," and I think it would be okay, but we were told that "Metroid" was indeed a bad idea. At that time, they said, "Well, we'll call it IGAvania," and I was very annoyed (laughs). Castlevania X: Nocturne under the Moon" ("Tsukishita"), which was the basis for the term I coined, was created because I wanted to make what is called a "stage-clearing action game" playable for a longer period of time. Another reason was that I wanted to make an action game that I could complete myself. At the time, most side-scrolling action games, including "Castlevania," could be completed in about two hours by a skilled player. But the price was 5800 yen or 6800 yen. We wanted to make it playable for a longer amount of time.

Mr. Harada:
For me, Metroidvania is also in the same vein as the old arcade games, or the action games that were popular in the early days of X1, PC88, and PC98. I am aware that the games from those days are connected to the present day.

─ Igarashi-san, did you always like those types of games?

Mr. Igarashi: 
I always liked side-scrollers and action games. I liked them, but I was so bad at them that I couldn't clear them (laughs). But there was one action game that I could clear, and that was "The Legend of Zelda." I was able to clear "The Legend of Zelda." That made me want to make a side-scrolling action game that I could finish. I also liked the world of "Castlevania." I always wanted to be involved in the production. When I joined the "Castlevania" team, we talked about making an action game that you could play while exploring, like "The Legend of Zelda." As a result, it ended up looking like "Metroid" (laughs). So, first, we wanted to make an action game like "The Legend of Zelda" with "Castlevania." However, it was thanks to "Tokimeki Memorial" that we were able to do that.

Mr. Harada:
You were involved in the "Tokimeki Memorial" scenario, weren't you?

Mr. Igarashi: 
I was one of the staff members of the original PC engine version of "Tokimeki Memorial." As you mentioned, I was in charge of the scenario. I was the one who wrote Shiori Fujisaki's lines.

Mr. Igarashi:
It is an unusual career path to be an engineer from the scriptwriting field, isn't it?

Mr. Igarashi: 
I was originally a programmer, but at the time there was no idea of outsourcing scenarios, so I was also a programmer who wrote scenarios. I was a member of a science fiction research group in college that made films, so it's not like I had never written a screenplay before. So, I was assigned to write the scenario for "Tokimeki Memorial." Thanks to the explosive success of "Tokimeki Memorial," I became a bit more flexible and .......

─ So you were able to be a little bit more selfish (laughs).

Mr. Igarashi: 
When I was working on the PC Engine version of " Castlevania: Rondo of Blood," I was working on "Tokimeki Memorial" next to him. I was just sitting next to him making "Tokimeki Memorial," and I was like, "I love that game.

Mr. Harada: 
Like, you wanted to play that (laughs).

Mr. Igarashi: 
While writing scenarios for "Tokimeki Memorial," I would visit the "Dracula" team and play with them. After that, I got involved in "Under the Moon" for various reasons. ...... This is a bit off topic, but that's how I got involved with "The Legend of Zelda," which is the origin of Metroidvania in my mind.

Mr. Harada: 
So, it was originally "Zeldavania." Were you always a fan of "The Legend of Zelda" series?"

Mr. Igarashi: 
I am a huge fan. It's not that I don't like "Metroid," but I think "Metroid" is difficult to make.

Mr. Harada: 
Yes, it is difficult. I try not to say too much about it, because my fans would say, "No, it's not difficult at all" when I say this (laughs).

Mr. Igarashi: 
The reason why we made "Castlevania" an exploration-type game and added an experience system was because we wanted to make sure that if you put in the time, you would be able to complete the game and see the ending. I wanted people to be able to play the game for the price. However, "Under the Moon" had multiple endings, so there were people who sold the game after seeing the first ending (laughs).

Mr. Takahashi: 
That's a common occurrence (laughs).

Mr. Igarashi: 
I made the ending properly, so maybe I should have made ...... Game Over. ......

Mr. Harada: 
What makes Metroidvania different from old arcade games is that we broke the "each game costs money" and "you can't clear the game unless you improve your skill." These two things were absolute rules in the arcade game business model, but the RPG element of "Under the Moon" broke those rules.

Mr. Harada: 
The characters become stronger, and you can pause in the game to take a recovery potion. This is a remedy for people who can't complete action games. The target audience is exactly like me: people who like the game but can't complete it. So, there are a lot of people like that in the world.

Mr. Saito: 
I totally understand. When I was a child, I played the Super Nintendo version of "Castlevania" as well, and it was so scary and difficult that I had dreams about it at night (laughs). It was so difficult and scary that I couldn't clear the game.

Mr. Takahashi: 
I was also scared of that bottle of holy water breaking (laughs).

Mr. Saito: 
I was scared of everything. I wasn't that good at action games myself. I was very happy that I could clear "Under the Moon" if I took my time.

Mr. Igarashi: 
I received a letter from a woman in her 30s saying, "I bought the packet, and for the first time I was able to complete an action game!" I thought, "Oh, I'm so glad I made this game."

Mr. Harada: 
That's how much the game has spread to people who are not good at action games.

Mr. Igarashi: 
I think so. Well, the visuals on the package were also good.

Mr. Takahashi: 
Alucard looks fantastic and handsome on the package.

Mr. Harada: 
I think maybe women appreciated this.

Mr. Igarashi: 
The original "Castlevania" series was based on the theme of vampires, so why have a macho muscle-bound guy as the main character?

What is the best part of exploring Metroidvania?

─ Earlier, you mentioned character growth elements. In terms of the distance between the player and the game, how do you, as the creators, balance the difficulty and user-friendliness of the game?

I would like to ask you how you design the balance of difficulty level to make players feel "fun". ......

Mr. Takahashi: 
Shadow Labyrinth" takes inspiration from "Hollow Knight" to a great extent. When I was playing "Hollow Knight," I was surprised to see that only around 10% of the players completed the game when I looked at the achievements on Steam.

I was so bad at it that I didn't clear it either, but I liked that level of difficulty. So, for "Shadow Labyrinth," I decided to keep that difficulty level and increase the clear rate with the growth elements in the game. While keeping the difficulty level itself based on "Hollow Knight," I aimed to increase the clear rate by changing the player's equipment from a copper sword to a silver sword .......

Mr. Igarashi:
I think my method is not so different from a normal action game. I design games based on "how many shots does it take to kill an enemy?" For example, one enemy can be killed with three shots, but another enemy takes four shots to kill. We also decide on an appropriate level, and then we design the game so that it becomes easier once the appropriate level is reached.

Mr. Fukui: 
It is the same in "Shadow Labyrinth," where each combination takes four shots, and the balance is such that a normal zombie enemy will die after four shots, but a slightly stronger enemy will require one more shot. If you raise your level, you can defeat an enemy that requires one more shot with a single combo. Previously, when we distributed a demo version of the game and saw many people playing it, all the gamers today are very good at it. I was surprised that they could use that technique in such a way! (laughs).

Mr. Saito: 
In terms of friendliness and player distance in Metroidvania, there is one thing I've been thinking about for a long time. I've been thinking about the map of Metroidvania, and in short, I'm wondering if there is a "hesitation" that players like. I don't know much about combat and such, but I think there is a definite "wandering speed" that Metroidvania users prefer when it comes to the map. It's hard to put it into words. For example, in some of ladybug's works, the stages are linear. To put it simply, it's not like Metroidvania. I once played an Early Access game that was like an add-on stage, but it was a map that was more like a side-scrolling action game than a typical Metroidvania. But all the players played it as if it was Metroidvania. When I wondered what users thought was the most Metroidvania-like, I realized that ladybug had made the speed of movement in the game and the speed of wandering around the map very faithfully match that of "Under the Moon". I thought that maybe users would consider the speed at which they wander back and forth across the map to be a Metroidvania. It may come as a surprise, but ladybug never puts in a dash move. When I asked them to include a dash before, they refused, saying, "This tempo is very important. He said, "That usability is a fake usability" (laughs).

─ That's a great quote (laughs).

Mr. Saito: 
(laughs) In the end, they added the dash later as an ability, but ladybug said, "You can't put it in at the beginning." So, I think this speed is the distance between the player and the map of Metroidvania. However, ladybug also tried to include the so-called "warp anywhere" in the latest game, and surprisingly it didn't spoil the experience. The tempo of going back and forth was good, and it was fun.

─ I think that from a player's point of view, the tempo is important.

Mr. Saito: 
Actually, the most important aspect of Metroidvania's play feel may be the tempo of movement. I feel that when I look at the current Metroidvania titles that are selling well. Especially in recent Metroidvania titles, the situation of "exploration" itself is emphasized, and elements that contribute to a sense of "immersion," such as the background, setting, and worldview, tend to be sought after. But if the tempo of movement is too fast, you can't focus on your surroundings, and you can't think straight.

Mr. Harada: 
That's difficult. I don't think it is "speed." Especially when I play the titles that Igarashi-san makes, I feel that what makes Metroidvania so special is "the location and frequency of save points."

Mr. Saito: 
Oh, I understand that too.

Mr. Harada: 
When exploring Metroidvania, there is always a sense of tension, of "How much further can I go? Do I continue on, or do I stop and go back? I think the risk/reward aspect of the game is what I really like about it. I think that risk-reward is the basis of games. For example, in old games, the balance between the two was quite extreme, and the only choice was "lose everything or get better." When playing "Bloodstained," I feel that the player's choice of whether to go forward or backward is controlled not by the speed of the character's actions, but by the location and frequency of save points as part of the level design.

Mr. Igarashi: 
Nowadays, there are more and more quick saves, so you can immediately resume and fight again. But in the past, it was common to "go back to the save point when you die. The level design was such that you had to give up all the items you had obtained, of course. On the other hand, "Shadow Labyrinth" keeps the items you have taken, doesn't it?

Mr. Harada: 
That's very kind (laughs). In our generation, when PCs were used to cassette tapes, we had to wait 40 minutes to return to the A-side of "Hyde Ride," for example.

*"Hyde Ride" (1984) A PC game released in 1984 by T&E SOFT for the PC-8800 series.

Mr. Fukui: 
In "Shadow Labyrinth," we first tried to design the game with a death penalty and a "zero" penalty if you die, but the staff who played the game on a test basis were up in arms about it (laughs).

Mr. Harada: 
It's no good now (laughs).

Mr. Takahashi: 
When you have to drastically cut back on the playing time, it's a time to break your heart in a bad way. It's a time when you think, "I'm going to quit this game now, ....... When you die and get your playing time drastically restored, you don't enjoy playing the game anymore. I think it's quite painful for me, but Fukui-san says, "That's the fun part! We had quite a bit of trouble (laughs).

Mr. Igarashi: 
(Laughs) I think it is a point where opinions differ. But nowadays users don't like the idea of losing a lot of things when they die, do they?

Mr. Harada: 
They hate it.

Mr. Saito: 
It's hard for me, too. But even in such a situation, "Escape from Tarkov" [*] is popular. ......

*"Escape from Tarkov" is an FPS featuring realistic gameplay; if you die in a raid with other players, you lose everything you were wearing or had previously acquired (with a few exceptions).

Mr. Harada: 
That's right.

Mr. Saito: 
I think it is one of the fundamental pleasures of games that if you make a mistake, you lose everything.

Mr. Harada: 
I also feel more tense when I play a game if I have to start from the beginning if I die. So, at the core, I think it is better to have high risk in games. But when I say that to young people these days, they respond, "You've got to be kidding." The current trend is for games to be cross-platform, and many games that used to be played on consoles can now be played on PCs, and even if you stop playing, you can immediately start over and play again in a short amount of time.

Mr. Fukui: 
My son is a gamer in his late 20s, and today's young people play a variety of games, so they don't like to spend time on a single game. If the game is like "zero because you die," they will say, "Oh, so this means that these 5 or 10 minutes, or even 30 minutes if it is bad, will be wasted⁉︎"

Mr. Saito: 
Among gamers, it seems that those who have a high ratio to the game don't seem to mind it too much. Even if there is something like zero when you die, they take it as "that happens, doesn't it? I believe that "gamer" is a respectful term. The percentage of core gamers who think "games are life" probably hasn't changed that much in the past. I think the fact that a new segment of gamers is emerging today indicates that games have spread to the outside world.

Mr. Fukui: 
When we were young, there was no Internet. But nowadays, the Internet is commonplace, and people are always playing via voice chat. So, I think that sense of play is very different from the past.

Mr. Igarashi: 
I think it is important to keep up with the current trends. Many people say, "It's not popular nowadays to say that if you die, you lose everything." Touching PAC-MAN was on "the same level as playing with Namco's company name!"

Mr. Takahashi: 
The Metroidvania for me was the first "Metroid" for the Disk System. From that point on, I was always influenced by the game, and I kept thinking, "I love this game!" I am a person whose only merit is games, but even so, I was able to enter a company that makes games, and I was able to make a living by creating games. In other words, my sense of inferiority was wiped away by the game. Metroidvania is a very difficult game. But that's why, when you clear the game, you feel a sense of accomplishment. "I'm so great!" When you clear the game, there is a sense of accomplishment. So, I thought it would be great if I could link that to a scenario in which the player overcomes a sense of inferiority. "Shadow Labyrinth" was born from that idea. The story of "overcoming a sense of inferiority" is the basis of this work.

─ "Shadow Labyrinth" was met with a lot of "PAC-MAN in a Metroidvania?" at the time of its announcement. or "PAC-MAN in a dark world? " What is the story behind the launch of "Shadow Labyrinth"? How did you come up with the idea?

Mr. Takahashi: 
Originally, I wanted to make a Metroidvania-like game. But it was quite difficult to create something like that from scratch.

─ So you didn't want to do "something new with PAC-MAN," but "something with Metroidvania" first.

Mr. Takahashi:
Yes. I have been supervising "PAC-MAN" for decades, and there were many things that had to be done, such as "PAC-MAN has to be a friend of justice," "PAC-MAN has to be cute," and so on. But I am not that nice by nature (laugh), so I felt some frustration, thinking, "PAC-MAN doesn't shoot bullets or bleed." Then I thought about it again and realized that I am very familiar with PAC-MAN, and the 45th anniversary of PAC-MAN's birth is coming up. So why not combine PAC-MAN and Metroidvania? That's how it came to be. I hadn't decided on a "dark PAC-MAN" from the beginning, but as I played around with the Metroidvania titles, I decided that the dress code for Metroidvania was "dark," and I decided to go with that. I guess it was like all the dark feelings I originally had inside me came out.

Mr. Harada:
When I first heard the idea of "PAC-MAN x Metroidvania," I thought, "That could work," and "I could make it work. Many of the staff at Namco Bandai Studios came from the arcade culture, and side-scrollers are our specialty. But at the same time, I also thought, "Can we include PAC-MAN?" As Takahashi mentioned earlier, we had to make sure that PAC-MAN was included in the game, there are many unwritten rules about PAC-MAN within the company. PAC-MAN is an icon that is too legendary.

It's hard to put it this way, but it was a kind of "difficult thing to touch.

It's not well known, but when I was at Namco, I did a survey in the U.S. that showed that PAC-MAN was about 2 points higher than Mario.

─ PAC-MAN even appeared in the closing ceremony video of the Rio Olympics.

Mr. Harada: 
It's because our IPs are Legendary that our characters are very well known. And PAC-MAN’s has a healthy image. But eating your enemies is a pretty gruesome thing to do, when you think about it, and yet PAC-MAN’s reputation is wholesome. To tell you the truth, when I was just starting out, I was once scolded by Masaya Nakamura and Toru Iwatani, the creators of "PAC-MAN". When I told them that I wanted to create a super macho character with only his head shaped like PAC-MAN for "Tekken," they were extremely angry (laughs). He told me, "You are doing the same thing as changing the name of the company. Since then, I thought, "PAC-MAN is not allowed to be touched." So, when I heard the idea from Takahashi, I thought that the fans would not accept it in the first place, as well as the unwritten rules within the company.

Mr. Takahashi: 
In terms of in-house, I was supervising the project, so I thought I could "properly remove it" even if I had to. Also, my boss when I joined the company was Toru Iwatani. When I was drafting the proposal, I met with Mr. Iwatani and presented it to him. I said, "Mr. Iwatani, I'm going to break it up. He said, "That's fine. He said, "PAC-MAN originally had no storyline, so it's okay as long as someone who understands it can break it. Do you think I know what I'm doing? He laughed and said, "Ha-ha-ha" (laughs).

Mr. Harada: 
Maybe I was the guy who didn't understand (laughs).

Mr. Takahashi: 
I was making "Shadow Labyrinth" with Mr. Iwatani's permission, and I guess the company would send information to Mr. Iwatani that "Takahashi is doing something like this. One year, I suddenly received a New Year's greeting card from Mr. Iwatani that said, "I think it would be a good idea to make a Pac-Man that is not Pac-Man," which made me tremble (laughs).

Mr. Aizawa: 
(Laughs) We started planning "Shadow Labyrinth" around the time Pac-Man's 40th anniversary was over, but there was talk that if we continued doing the same thing as before, we would only get the same kind of customers as before. As the generations change, more and more people will have the impression that PAC-MAN is a strong character in "Smash Bros.

Mr. Harada: 
Some people think it's an apparel brand or an apparel icon.

Mr. Aizawa: 
That's right.

─ What? Apparel?

Mr. Harada: 
Some young people think of him as a fashionable and cute apparel icon. There are a lot of PAC-MAN goods and apparel out there, so there are people who have that image.

Mr. Aizawa: 
That was one of the reasons why we felt that we had to attract more and more young people. It was not that we were abandoning the existing PAC-MAN, but that we wanted to try something new. We started this project with the enthusiasm to create a dark and cool PAC-MAN that would disrupt the entire concept of PAC-MAN up to now.

─ Both Igarashi and Saito played the demo version of "Shadow Labyrinth" and said it had a lot of new features. They were talking about something like, "What is that robot?

*That robot - GAIA, a character in "Shadow Labyrinth," a figure transformed by fusing the nanobite material that makes up PUCK and Swordsman.

Mr. Takahashi: 
That's supposed to be a power-up cookie for "Pac-Man. The one that makes you invincible. That's why it's so strong in "Shadow Labyrinth.

*The Power Pellet from original arcade PAC-MAN is sometimes colloquially referred to as a “power cookie.”

Mr. Saito: 
Oh, so they are power cookies. I see.

Mr. Takahashi: 
That's what I had in mind. But to be honest, power cookies are very strong, so I think it was very difficult for Mr. Fukui, who was in charge of level design. Mr. Fukui said, "How are you going to reproduce such a strong cookie in the game? He asked me at .......

Mr. Fukui: 
It was extremely difficult (laughs). What are we going to do? There is no game balance anymore. What are we going to do?

Mr. Harada: 
Only that part is out of the Metroidvania style (laughs).

Mr. Fukui: 
(laughs) At first, we were thinking of making a ride-along type robot. We were designing a game in which the human characters would explore the areas where they could not ride, and then they would clear a path for the bigger robots to pass. However, as we built the prototype, we frequently received feedback that we should still be able to ride the robot at any time. ...... Finally, we settled on the current form, which stores energy and consumes it to become a robot.

Mr. Saito: 
The game has changed, hasn't it?

Mr. Fukui: 
How did you two like playing "Shadow Labyrinth"?

Mr. Igarashi: 
I liked how vivid the controls are. However, although the predatory action is very pleasing, I was slightly bothered by "this push-and-pull operation ......." The fact that the robot is invincible made sense now that you explained it. I am sure it will be adjusted well, though it will certainly be a big part of the game. I enjoyed the game a lot, and I think it is a great game.

Mr. Saito: 
I was like, "It's PAC-MAN, but what the heck is this? I liked the unexpectedness of the game. Making Metroidvania with PAC-MAN is a kind of absurd story, isn't it? I was very happy to see that the game was successful in spite of that. I was also interested in the game design and storyline, where you become stronger by eating enemies, and I couldn't fully enjoy the experience of how the legendary PAC-MAN material was utilized, so I'm definitely looking forward to playing the game more.

Fukuyama: 
Thank you very much.
─ By the way, did Mr. Iwatani have any requests for "Shadow Labyrinth"?

Mr. Takahashi: 
Nothing in particular. With "PAC-MAN," Mr. Iwatani had a strong feeling that "the game should be based on the game system," and he didn't feel that he had to follow any particular rules.

Mr. Harada: 
Looking at it from the side, I feel that PAC-MAN is only one of the elements. In the course of development, the term "Metroidvania" was used much more than "PAC-MAN," maybe an 8:2 ratio.　PAC-MAN is only one ...... proper noun, and we've been going along with the perception that "the root of the story is Metroidvania".

A somber, introspective story is more compatible with Metroidvania.

─ In the context of Metroidvania, Saito-san also worked on "Record of Lodoss War -Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth- ". What have you shared with us so far in terms of adapting well-known IPs into Metroidvania?

Mr. Saito: 
To tell you the truth, I was selecting IPs from the viewpoint of easy supervision. This is because indie creators are not very strong when it comes to supervision. Therefore, I tried to acquire IPs that required little supervision. Because of this, the first IP we borrowed was "Touhou Project," and because of ZUN's deep pockets, there was almost no interference with the content of the game. The timing for "Record of Lodoss War" was also very good, and I was able to talk directly with the author, Ryo Mizuno, not through the anime production committee, but through the editorial department of the publishing company. This made it possible for me to produce the film with a very light supervision. In that sense, I didn't have to undergo much hardship in terms of supervision or worldview. However, of course, as long as you are making a game, you have to make it appealing, so in that sense, there were some difficulties. Like the developers of "Shadow Labyrinth," our goal was to "create a Metroidvania". Team ladybug, who was in charge of development, is a team that is very particular about the Metroidvania genre. Among them, I especially respect Mr. Igarashi a lot. I respect him so much that I've been told not to say anything about it out in the open because I'm embarrassed (laughs). Since you are developing a game in a highly specialized genre, you have to choose your IPs very carefully.

─ I see. What are the conditions for an IP that has a high affinity with Metroidvania, in your opinion?

Mr. Saito: 
I think that introspective stories or ones that are a bit horror-like are compatible with Metroidvania. For example, the publisher of "Record of Lodoss War" is KADOKAWA, and "Slayers" is a similar IP from the same KADOKAWA family. But when I thought about adapting "Slayers" into a Metroidvania, I couldn't find a good starting point. To be honest, I thought it would be quite difficult. On the other hand, I felt that I could do it with "Record of Lodoss War." The reason is that the character, Deedlit[*], is a very lonely character. When you play Metroidvania, you go back and forth across the map. This back and forth is a great way to express the lonely and anxious feelings of the character. That was one of the reasons why we decided on "Record of Lodoss War," and I also decided on the title. The title was "Deedlit in Wonder Labyrinth," which expresses the loneliness and hesitation of Diederit after Pern's death as she wanders through the labyrinth of her own mind.

Mr. Harada: 
I see. Bloodstained" takes a different approach, doesn't it?

Mr. Igarashi: 
I didn't really think that much about it (laughs).

Mr. Harada: 
Whenever it was convenient, a character would suddenly run in from the background and say, "Wait a minute!" At the right moment, a character would suddenly run up from behind you and say something like, "How did you get here? How did you get here?" It's true that an uneasy atmosphere is probably a better match.

Mr. Saito: 
I think we had good chemistry with indies. There are a lot of indie Metroidvania titles that have that kind of atmosphere. Hollow Knight" is one example, and "Nine Sols" is not a very cheerful story.

Mr. Fukui: 
I don't mean that in a bad way, but perhaps many of the people who create them are gloomy (laughs).

Mr. Saito:
Ha-ha-ha-ha (laughs).

Mr. Fukui: 
It's the same for me, but I prefer games made by people with dark roots.

Mr. Harada: 
Game developers are rather dark-rooted (laughs). You are that type, aren't you, Mr. Igarashi?

Mr. Igarashi: 
I have dark roots (laughs).

Mr. Fukui: 
The darker the game, the easier it is to create. I have dark roots, so when I try to express my own personality, my games tend to be dark as well. This may come as a surprise to you, but Mr. Harada is also very dark-rooted, isn't he?

Mr. Harada: 
I am also dark-rooted! I love the situation where everyone is stuck in the house on a rainy day, and I'm like, "Well, now everyone can't have fun, but I'm having so much fun in my room. Do you know how I always feel?" That's why it's better for people who create something to have dark roots.

Mr. Takahashi: 
Single-player games are probably easier to get into for people with a certain kind of introverted personality. In online games, there are moments when relationships in the real world come out, but in single-player games, you can really immerse yourself in the game world.

Mr. Igarashi: 
I also get tired of invitations to join guilds. Even if you do join a guild, you may find yourself following at a slow pace behind the other guild members who are all shouting ....... It's a position that says, "He won't come even if I call him. ......

Mr. Harada: 
In schools, people talk about the school caste, and that kind of position in the real world is reflected in online games as well.
Recently, "stories" are being sought in action games as well.

─ Igarashi-san, you recently announced your new game "Bloodstained: The Scarlet Engagement". If you could tell us as much as you can, could you tell us about your enthusiasm for the "Bloodstained" series, such as what you are aiming for with it?

Mr. Igarashi: 
Originally, "Bloodstained" was inspired by the fact that 2D side-scrolling action games were no longer profitable. At the time, games in this genre were mainly developed for handheld consoles, but it became difficult to make a profit. It was a time when price protection was not an option. In short, development costs were high, but we couldn't raise the price of the game. Even when I suggested "why don't you just pay full price," I was told "we can't do that." ...... Around that time, "Mighty No. 9" [*] was successfully crowdfunded, and I was invited to a party to celebrate with the person who had initiated the crowdfunding campaign, where he whispered in my ear, "Now is the time to quit".

*Mighty No. 9 is a 2D side-scrolling action game developed by Keiji Inafune, known for his "Mega Man" series, together with INTI CREATES, and became a hot topic in 2013 when it raised 3.8 million dollars (about 400 million yen) on the crowdfunding site Kickstarter.

Mr. Igarashi:
There was a company that wanted to invest in the project, so I quit my job and said, "Well, let's make 'Bloodstained.’" However, the company I was going to invest in became a little doubtful, so I decided to do crowdfunding. The concept of the first "Bloodstained" was to "play that fun game again." It's a very nostalgic concept, but I think we were able to deliver what the users expected from the first "Bloodstained". The director of "Bloodstained: The Scarlet Engagement," which I am working on now, has been helping me a lot. So, it's a challenging title with a lot of the director's ideas in it. It's a game where you switch between two characters, and we're doing a lot of new things, such as a job system and an inspiration system.

Mr. Harada: 
What is the inspiration system?

Mr. Igarashi: 
It is a system in which, when certain conditions are met and a technique is performed during an action, a new technique is inspired. By having inspiration, you will be able to use that technique.

Mr. Saito: 
It's like a certain RPG.

Mr. Harada: 
When you were developing the first "Bloodstained," what was the biggest learning experience or reaction?

Mr. Igarashi: 
Since the time of "Under the Moon," many people have told us that they want us to delve deeper into the story and characters.

Mr. Harada:
I see, so that's your point of view.

Mr. Igarashi: 
This is my style or habit, but when it comes to action games, I like to keep the scenario to a minimum so that it does not interfere with the gameplay. There were a number of books published on "Toki Memo," but I like to leave it up to the users to use their imagination to fill in the blanks in the game. If there is a sequel to the game, I think it would be good to fill in the blanks by saying, "This is the formula." But now, he wants us to dig deeper. That's one of the reasons I didn't write the scenario for "The Scarlet Engagement. In the first version, I wrote the scenario, but if I wrote it myself, it would become dry (laughs). (laughs) Now the director writes the scenario himself, and it's very interesting.

Mr. Harada: 
I liked the "nostalgic feel" of the first "Bloodstained”. The characters suddenly start to return home (laughs).

Mr. Igarashi: 
There is a lot of opportunism (laughs).

Mr. Harada: 
There were times when the character starts to explain something and then says, "Well, I'll go on ahead of you!" I thought, "No, no, that's too convenient!"

Mr. Igarashi: 
(laughs). Even in the case of "Under the Moon," there were times when I asked, "How did you get in here?

Mr. Harada: 
(laughs) But it's true that fighting games are now placing more emphasis on the storyline. Storylines in fighting games were always opportunistic, and in the past, people used to say that they were unnecessary. But since the beginning of the 21st century, the world has changed considerably. Statistically speaking, games that do not include a story mode do not sell well. Titles that spend a lot of money on the story mode sell much better. That was a major factor in the rapid growth of "Tekken and "Mortal Kombat," titles that spend a lot of money on the story mode. Compared to the past, the customer base has changed drastically, and this change may not be limited to young people. Customers who seek narratives are the trend now, aren't they?

Mr. Saito: 
Narratives are difficult. It's not enough to make it long because it's a narrative game, and people don't like it if it's short. If it fits the game experience, they may be willing to put up with it even if it is long. ......

Mr. Harada: 
It's not good if you have to explain the game all the time.

Mr. Fukui: 
In the games of our generation, there was not so much direction, due to the problem of space and so on.

Mr. Harada: 
There was a performance that I had no choice but to use the Haoh Shoko Ken "
*"I have no choice but to use the 'Haou Shoukou Ken,” a line from Ryo Sakazaki, the main character in SNK's fighting game "Art of Fighting". It is played in the demo scene before the John Crowley fight. The full line is: "If you are fighting a man with a weapon, you have no choice but to use the 'Haou Shoukou Ken'.

Mr. Fukui: 
No, I have no choice but to use that (laughs).

─ Thank you very much for the comment from a former SNK staff member (laughs).

Mr. Fukui: 
But, well, the current narratives are amazing, aren't they?

Mr. Harada: 
Everyone is looking for that. They want more than just a sense of accomplishment or fun in the gameplay; they want the game to be an experience.

Mr. Aizawa:
I think there is an increase in narrative expression that makes people feel and experience the game through the system and gameplay, rather than simply telling the story.

Mr. Aizawa: 
PAC-MAN originally had almost no scenario or storyline.

Mr. Harada: 
I mean, there is no way there is!  There is no way a game born in that era could have such a deep story (laughs).

Mr. Aizawa: 
(Laughs) Mr. Aizawa: When various derivative works came out, they had a little setting, but they didn't have a scenario that would become the basis of the game. That is why it is difficult to create something new. When it was decided to create a work in the Metroidvania genre, I was delighted to finally be able to include a story (laughs). I guess having a story makes it easier to develop the game in various ways.

Mr. Takahashi: 
In "Hollow Knight," for example, you only show a little bit of the story. It's really about making you feel the content. That's what we were aiming for with "Shadow Labyrinth," but even so, we used the PAC-MAN IP this time, so we had to properly depict "why is PAC-MAN fighting here?" Therefore, there is a lot of story in the development process, and there is also a historical story related to "New Space Order," which I had worked on before. Therefore, in addition to the main story, we have supplemented it with items from memoirs that can be picked up throughout the game to give a deeper story.

*[UGSF] (United Galaxy Space Force)
The name of a series of fictional armies that commonly appear in Namco (now Bandai Namco Entertainment) video games, as well as a series of titles in which they appear. See http://ugsf-series.com/ for more.

Mr. Fukui: 
After all the personnel and budgets had been decided, we had to increase the number of troops, so the work site was already devastated (laughs).

Mr. Takahashi: 
No, that's not it. You said something like, "Let us do as we please" (laughs).

Mr. Fukui: 
I am the type of person who thinks that games don't need much direction, and that the gaps in the story should be filled in by the player's own mind. But when things like the setting of the story started to develop, the atmosphere at the site was like, "Yeah, ......," but even as we said that everyone was in high spirits as we worked (laughs).

Mr. Saito: 
Incidentally, as a producer, I do look at the scenario, but I always say, "Make sure the text has synchronicity with the game experience. In ladybug's new game, "Blade Chimera," there is a system in which players learn skills in the form of a tree, and this part is also linked to the story. Whenever a man who has lost his memory recalls his skills, he regains his memory and the story progresses. In this way, the players themselves are able to relive what the characters in the game have recalled.

"Fun" is no longer enough

─ Mr. Saito, you mentioned earlier about trends in Metroidvania, but do you have any observations about the zeitgeist of Metroidvania?

Mr. Saito: 
I would say that the number of Metroidvania games on the Steam market has increased. At one time, there was a certain group of users who would buy 100% of Metroidvania games if they were of a certain quality. It was like an imprinting effect, or there was a certain segment of the population that thought "Metroidvania is the best game." But nowadays, there are so many Metroidvania games that even that group can't handle them. In this situation, it is no longer enough to just make good games.

Mr. Harada: 
In the end, even if it is a minor genre, once it is established, it will have to suffer the same pain as the major genres. When that happens, you want the name recognition of the creator, the IP, and other such things. Nowadays, it is taken for granted that a game is interesting, and games on Steam for ¥1,000 or ¥2,000 are quite interesting. There are plenty of titles that are actually interesting and highly rated, but don't sell well. If the public notices the game, everyone will appreciate it, but it takes the power of the publisher and the IP to get people to notice it. The Metroidvania genre is also suffering from the market's inability to differentiate itself from other genres.

Mr. Saito: 
In recent years, there has been an obvious increase in the number of users on Steam who are looking for volume. I have also observed that the word "volume" has started to appear in Steam reviews, and I feel that we are really in a mature stage.

Mr. Harada: 
It's not so much the volume itself, but rather the price, which is severe.

Mr. Saito: 
Yes, yes, that's right.

Mr. Harada: 
If the price was set at 8,000 yen, people would be more severe, but if it was 2,400 yen, they would say, I'll forgive you, ....... Overseas, what is required is very different depending on whether the price is $19.99, $29.99, or $39.99.

Mr. Saito: 
Until about three years ago, users were a bit more open-minded. They were willing to pay less attention to price and volume as long as the game was interesting.

Mr. Harada: 
I think that people who play AAA games and buy Metroidvania as a sub-game are starting to focus on Metroidvania as their staple food is also having an influence on the market.

Mr. Aizawa: 
That's probably the case (laughs).

Mr. Takahashi: 
In the beginning, I thought it would take 20 to 30 hours to complete "Shadow Labyrinth," but the volume gradually increased, and it took me about 60 hours to complete the final stage myself. But as the volume of the game grew, it took me about 60 hours to finish the last page.

Mr. Saito: 
Nowadays, it is not enough if something is good. The art, setting, action, and narrative must be excellent in all aspects, and the playtime must be consistent to a certain degree. That makes it very difficult.

Mr. Takahashi:
One thing that I've always wondered about ...... is, "Are we allowed to go to Metroidvania?" I have always wondered. Metroidvania is a kind of sacred place for indies. I wondered if it would be rude to go there.

Mr. Takahashi:
You mean as Bandai Namco?

Mr. Takahashi: 
Yes, that's right. That's why we made "Shadow Labyrinth" in a very indie way, so that people would understand how it was made and what was in it.

Mr. Saito: 
To begin with, the indie game industry is undergoing a renaissance. The Metroidvania genre was originally created by KONAMI, Mr. Igarashi and other development staff, and Nintendo and the "Metroid" staff.

Mr. Harada: 
It was created by a huge publisher, wasn't it?

Mr. Saito: 
As game technology advanced, there was a moment when 2D games were left out of the mainstream, and I believe that this movement was created as a renaissance in that void. I think that indie creators like the artists who were trying to do something new and sharp in that place will be looking for a new place to go next. For example, Steam used to be a great place for indie developers. But it would be arrogant to say, "Don't let the big companies come in."

Mr. Igarashi: 
"Bloodstained" is often called an indie game, but I don't really consider it an indie game. Metroidvania is not only for indies. The indie in my mind is the kind of indie that is making things with a light burning under its fingernails and saying, "This is what I like!" I'm making this stuff with my fingernails lit on fire. "Bloodstained" is supported by crowdfunding and has received investment from publishers, and I think it is a bit disrespectful to call it an indie game.

Mr. Harada: 
I understand. That's the image I have as well. It is just like an indie band.

Mr. Takahashi: 
I guess you could call it a doujinshi-like atmosphere.

Mr. Saito: 
I am also the president of an indie label, and I produce a small team of one or two or four creators. However, the definition of "indie" is difficult to define. From the user's point of view, as you mentioned earlier, it has nothing to do with anything other than price and quality.

Mr. Harada: 
That's right. They consider a game with sharp artwork for 2,000 to 3,000 yen to be an indie game.

Mr. Saito:
There are also a small number of creators who are working hard to make indie games, and I think they should really be respected. I read an interview with an American developer of a game called "kenshi," which seems to be a family production. When asked why he doesn't get paid by the publisher, he replied, "Is there anything more important than being independent?"

Mr. Harada: 
That is quite impressive.

Mr. Saito: 
I think there is no doubt that Metroidvania was a genre that was easy for individuals to create.

Mr. Harada: 
Nowadays, it is becoming quite difficult to do that, isn't it? I would like to see an audio commentary by Mr. Igarashi as an element of the second round of the game, instead of the background music. I think it would be appreciated by people who want to know more about the game" (laughs). And it could be a first in the gaming industry: ....... This is a good thing you said (laughs).

All of them:
(laughs).
─ Mr. Harada made me feel at ease at the end, so I will end this round-table discussion. Thank you all very much for your time today!

Shadow Labyrinth is Available Now!